Alternative treatment or naturopathy

mikes · Senior User Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143

You are very welcome.

Just one caution: Melatonin has a very low side-effect profile (headaches, sleepiness, and vivid dreams), but there are two things to avoid with melatonin.

They are steroids such as Prednesone or Dexamethasone and Procardia (nefedepine).

mikes · Senior User Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143

Francis,

Here are some links concerning PSK and breast cancer. I'm more familiar with PSK and NSCLC in which the PSK is used to lower the side effects and increase the effacacy of various chemo agents.

PSK is not nearly as easy to find for sale as is melatonin but the are a couple of sources in this country. You can check it out, but I believe that PSK has no known side effects. Since several clinics use PSK, it may be available to medical professionals through their channels. I don't know.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12168863&query_hl=26

Talks about PSK and breast cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9260604&query_hl=26

Also talks about PSK and breast cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1423177&query_hl=26

Also talks about PSK and breast cancer.

http://www.cancerguide.org/psk.html says in part:

"If you're from Japan, you're probably wondering why I've listed PSK under alternative therapies. In Japan, PSK is an approved anti-cancer drug with 20 years of research behind it. PSK sales in Japan account for hundreds of millions dollars worth of sales each year. But in the US, PSK is little known, is not used by mainstream doctors, and until recently nothing like it was readily available. Now a nutritional supplement designed to be identical to PSK is available in the US, but very few mainstream doctors, and actually not many alternative practitioners are aware of it. So in the US, PSK has the status of a little known nutritional supplement or alternative therapy. Which is too bad in light of its proven benefits, easy administration, and lack of toxicity. Before I start sounding too much more like an advertisement, let me confess. I really am excited about it, but I have no financial interest in it; I'm not selling it.

PSK doesn't have the hype associated with many alternative therapies, but it does have one thing most alternative therapies don't. Extensive documented results published in mainstream medical journals. Of all of the so called alternative therapies, this is one I can positively endorse - because of the great depth of published medical research supporting its use in cancer treatment."

I don't believe that this is a particularly authoritative site, but it seems reasonable to me.

Melatonin has many properties that may make it beneficial.

These include synchronizing the biological clock, promoting sleep, free radical scavaging (anti-oxident), and perhaps most importantly elevates P53 gene activity which promotes cancer cell death.

PSK is also a P53 gene enhancer.

Hope this helps,

Mike

Muttsmom

Isn't melatonin for sleep?
_________________
Nancy
2/14/02 ILC 43 - 5.5 cm 9+/16 nodes
Stage IIIA er/pr+ Her2-
2/02 MRM
FECx6 radsx33
Tamoxifen - Arimidex (chemo induced menopause)
4/03 SM w/bilat. recon.
9/03 expanders removed
5/04 repair reconst. disaster
10/04 Actonel for bone/joint pain from Arimidex
NED - 5 years
3/07 Diabetes
In memory of Kim 12/1/04

francis · Regular Joined: 12 Jun 2005 Posts: 35

It is related to sleep, but it has other uses. But what do I know, I am a lay person who only has a payperson's knowledge of these things (i.e., superficial).

When my wife and I met with a naturopath, he prescribed melatonin as part of a complementary regime. The original question in this thread, however, had to do with alternatives to chemo, not use of melatonin etc, as part of a complementary treatment regime that includes chemo.

mikes · Senior User Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143

Franicis,

Both PSK and melatonin may be used alone or in conjuction with chemo.

It is a little harder to find studies where they are used alone, but they do exist.

Mike

Muttsmom

Hi,
Once again, I plead stupid. What is NSCLC?

Most definately I know that chemo is poison, but where Somers mistletoe extract is poison, with nothing saying that it does fight against breast cancer, chemo is known to fight against breast cancer and many others.

Sadly, some cancer is very aggressive regardless of what kind. I lost my best friend 12/1/04 to BC. We were dx 1 day apart and she had a reoccuence after only 6 months to her lungs. About 18 months later it went to her brain and she said that was it, she was just worn out. Some can take chemo for mets for years and stay stable. Kim was one of the exceptions and not the rule that the chemo caused heart damage. No doubt there can be side affects but the % of side affects and the % chance it could keep us NED, the % is far greater then the side affects.

Again, I'm so sorry you lost your wife. I've lost 2 very good friends to different kinds of cancer. One was 35 and one was 48. It sucks and it makes me angry that we don't have more $$$ going to research instead of so much to other countries. I don't want to start a political topic because you know what they say about the 2 things people shouldn't discuss.........lol

Take care
Nancy
_________________
Nancy
2/14/02 ILC 43 - 5.5 cm 9+/16 nodes
Stage IIIA er/pr+ Her2-
2/02 MRM
FECx6 radsx33
Tamoxifen - Arimidex (chemo induced menopause)
4/03 SM w/bilat. recon.
9/03 expanders removed
5/04 repair reconst. disaster
10/04 Actonel for bone/joint pain from Arimidex
NED - 5 years
3/07 Diabetes
In memory of Kim 12/1/04

mikes · Senior User Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143

Hi nancy,

NSCLC is Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer which is the number one killer cancer in the world by far.

I am not a proponent of mistletoe therapy, mainly because I am not very familiar with it.

You said: " mistletoe extract is poison, with nothing saying that it does fight against breast cancer"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15460213&query_hl=7

says in part:
"CONCLUSIONS: The results of the present study confirmed the safety of the complementary therapy of patients with primary, non-metastatic mammary carcinoma with a standardized mistletoe extract and showed considerably fewer ADRs attributed to concurrent conventional therapy, as well as reduced disease and treatment-associated symptoms, and suggested a prolonged overall survival in the mistletoe extract group as compared with controls."

This is the result of a controlled study of the same type used to test chemo or any other drug.

Best wishes,

Mike

Muttsmom

NO, In didn't say it wasn't used for BC, but pointing out a fact that while chemo is poison, so are some of these " natural" routes and for me, if I'm going to get poison, I want it to be one that has proven to woek. I also can't imagne getting shots in the stomach however many times a week she started out at, but I know she's down to 2 after 5 years. I wanted to be treated aggressively, which wasn't in question with my stage and I wanted it to be over. I'd rather have 5-6 months of chemo and pray it workds, then 5 years of something that is unproved.
_________________
Nancy
2/14/02 ILC 43 - 5.5 cm 9+/16 nodes
Stage IIIA er/pr+ Her2-
2/02 MRM
FECx6 radsx33
Tamoxifen - Arimidex (chemo induced menopause)
4/03 SM w/bilat. recon.
9/03 expanders removed
5/04 repair reconst. disaster
10/04 Actonel for bone/joint pain from Arimidex
NED - 5 years
3/07 Diabetes
In memory of Kim 12/1/04

mikes · Senior User Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143

Hi Nancy,

The link I put on my last post was to show you that it has been proven to work. That's why I put it there was for you to check it out for yourself.

I don't know what chemo you are using, but if you wanted to see how and when it was tested in a trial, you would go to this same site and type in the name of your chemo.

Like I said earlier, I am not really familiar with mistletoe, but the previous post was to show you that it passed its trial the same as your chemo did.

Best wishes,

Mike

Rocky · New User Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Chicago

THANK YOU ALL for responding.
Mikes and Francis had a little discussion here about Melatonin and chemo and Muttsmom tried to bring the conversation back to ?Naturopathy? so there is a nice healthy chat going. Let me be a bit ?selfish? and steer it back to alternative medicine by giving a few thoughts about conventional Smile

.

CONVENTIONAL MEDICINE:
We are living in a highly sophisticated society and here in US we have access to the best that is available in the world. Hospitals, doctors, treatments? On the other hand this ?best? is not THAT good yet. Not that long ago doctors literally made holes in a scull to cure Schizophrenia. That was the best that they could offer during those days so people did go for it. Today breast cancer is addressed with scalper, radiation and chemicals. This is the best what we can do but still nowdays - mere lump in a breast grows and KILLS. ?Breast cancer is a leading cause of cancer deaths in women younger than 40? [url]http://www.youngsurvival.org/ [/url]. I have come across statistics telling about successful treatments and great FIVE years survival rate. My wife is 33 and great FIVE years survival rate?...

Forgive me for a bit technical example (I am a guy ? you know?):
Imagine that you take your car to a shop because the right front tire of your car is badly worn (you found a lump in your breast and you go to a doctor).
Mechanic looks at it ? says ?you need a new rubber?, puts a new tire, charges you $89.95 plus tax and you go? (Doctor takes the lump out, does a reconstructive surgery, charges you $20.000-$40.000)
What mechanic did not see was that your tire rods are badly worn and he did not know that you like ?spin the wheels? and you LOVE driving in circles counterclockwise so next thing that happens ? your wheel flies off and you crash. (Your doctor did not know that you like to eat fried food that you had some problems with other organs that did not allow normal function of your body and you had some habit that directly promoted growth of the tumors).

Almost everything is known about the car because a man built it but body is way much more complex machine and a man did not play a role in designing it. Doctors make decisions and suggest treatments based on what they know. I feel unfortunate to live today because doctors do not know enough to treat my wife without subjecting her to another dangers and poisons. Even treated that way she has guarantees. Medicine already started understanding how body functions but fails to put everything together and address a problem that occurs without any side effects. As proof ? we get sick, get old ? we die. I do believe that time will come when people will not die of sickness or natural causes but it is yet very far in the future. But you know what ? if it is the best they can do to extend your stay on earth by hurting you ? so BE IT. We live today and there is nothing we can do about it.

My wife said that she never enjoyed life so much as she does now. She wants to stay!

On the other hand there is
ALTERNATIVE APPROACH:
It gives you hope. It tells you that you do not have to (actually that you MUST NOT) subject yourself to poisons radiation and scalper. The cancer is a result of your body not being able to clean itself properly. Your body could not get rid of bad cells so it started gathering them in one place instead of letting them disperse throughout the body (tumor). All it has to be done is ? clean the body drains (skin, lymph system, digestive tract) and let the bad cells ?drain?? Stop consuming bad foods that clog your body. Stop eating fried foods, drinking soda by a gallon, consuming genetically altered foods that humans were never exposed to before so their bodies had no chance adapt to them and so on?

However these approaches are left untested by conventional medicine. (Mikes ? I?ll do some more research on the link you posted about various researches into alternative medicine). There is no system created that would help filter out guys who are into alternative medicine just for a $$$. So there are bunch of charlatans out there. Also conventional medicine is stagnant and reluctant to even take a look at alternatives because there is a lot of money invested into current conventional approaches and accepting alternative methods could mean big reorganization that some people would not be happy about. Maybe alternatives seem just too stupid to even look at. Who knows?

I went to one of the offices where they claim successfully treating cancers for decades. I was there; I spoke to this lady (who works there) while looking in here eyes. I asked if she personally has met people whom they successfully treated thought these years (over 20). She responded ? ?MANY, actually the most people who follow the program?. I do believe that the world is rotten but I just can not comprehend if someone like this woman could lie me in the face when she knew that by lying she might be sending my wife (standing right beside me) to the grave.

A friend of mine (she is a doctor) recommended me to talk to my wife and tell her:
?If you are not going to surgery ? you will definitely die soon and I do not want to watch you die because you believed in some witchcraft?

What really sucks is that our decision can be made based ONLY upon what we choose to BELIEVE. There is no ?Knowledge? factor. Simply ? when it comes to cancer no one knows enough about the body to make DEFINITELY RIGHT decisions based on it. It just happened that my wife was exposed to more information about naturalists than most of people are. She never took drugs (always used teas roots and what not) and has avoided hospital so far. Meanwhile I know too little and feel afraid to give her any ultimatums and decide for her how she has to be treated. If she goes under the scalper because I will tell her to ? even if everything goes very well, she will always think that she could have saved her breast and we could have had children. I am not sure if I will be able to forgive myself for making decision for somebody else.

You know ? actually I am reading what I just wrote and I think I came to this forum to get some support for myself, maybe I needed to just put this in writing so I can read it myself. I don?t think I will be able or even try to convince her to go to hospital. I tried - she cried for 2 days. Then she became even stronger in believing that she is right in what she?s doing.

I have no idea where it will take us (doctors say that they do...)
Thank you
Rocky
.

francis · Regular Joined: 12 Jun 2005 Posts: 35

Rocky,

What type of alternative treatment is your wife considering using?

Francis

mikes · Senior User Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143

Rocky,

As far as I can see, you have not told us what stage your Wife's cancer is.

This is the main determining factor as to what treatment(s) can be used with a chance of cure.

For example, my Wife had NSCLC Stage IV for which standard treament offers no chance of cure. Therefore, when she took chemotherapy and readiation therapy, there was no chance of cure. In spite of this, she had exposure to all of the negative aspects of the treatments. In other words. she had everything to lose but little to gain. The chemotherapy given in her case is referred to as palliative, which means to relieve symptoms. I find it hard to accept that a treatment which can cause hair loss, nausea, organ damage, and blood damage as palliative. In her case, the treatment was truely worse than the disease. And worse, she really had nothing to gain from it.

If, on the other hand, your Wife's cancer stage is such that she might actually be cured, at least she would have something to gain from the treament. Some people reject chemotherapy even if a cure is possible.

I believe you should look at:

http://www.nccn.org/professionals/physician_gls/f_guidelines.asp?button=I+Agree#site

and follow the flow charts for your Wife's disease and stage. That way you will have a better idea what you are actually dealing with.

I ran across a clinic on the web in Mississippi that appears to be promising for cases like your Wife's. It represents a mixture of standard and alternative treatment with an emphasis on immunotherapy. You can check it out at:

http://www.cancernet.com/

A clinic that appears to concentrate on alternative treatments is:

http://cancer-treatment-alternative.com/breast-cancer-treatments.htm

They seem to emphasize rebuilding the immune system.

The only thing I know about these is what I have seen on the web, so I couldn't actually recommend them.

Another thing you might want to check out is the Moss Report at:

http://www.cancerdecisions.com/

There is quite a bit of information on this site and others concerning Mr. Moss' ideas and beliefs. Mr. Moss started his career in the sphere of conventional treatment at Memorial Sloan Kettering Clinic in NY. He became alienated and moved to the alternative sector. You can check out his writings and books, but more importantly, you can order a report tailored to your individual case. I have not seen one of these reports, but it is an opportunity that you might want to check out. he is very much against chemotherapy, so this may turn your Wife even more against it.

Here again, while I have no first hand experience or knowledge, there are some positive reports out there (some even on sites like PubMed/NIH and MD Anderson) that show positive results for melatonin, PSK, selenium, green tea, and mistletoe. PSK has been in the mainstream in Japan for over 20 years where it is not considered alternative. Melatonin and mistletoe are considered conventional treatment in Europe. (melatonin is a prescription drug in Europe, not over-the-counter like it is here.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Mike

PS: I just ran across the following web page when I was checking out the link I gave you about Mr. Moss. It has the best information that I have ever seen concerning alternative treatment:

http://www.cancerdecisions.com/beatcancer_frm.html

Rocky · New User Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Chicago

WOW... some reading for a few days. THANK YOU
I see you have done your research and I appreciate you shearing it.

Sone history about my wife - she found a small lump in her left breast in beginning of June 2005. It followed by a lymph inflammation in her armpit (same side). After she took antibiotics for 10 days inflammation was gone. She had biopsy in beginning of July and a second one in the middle of July. In the end of July she was told that this is cancer for sure. Lump by then became about a bit over 1 inch . We were told that it is most likely stage 1 or 2 but it is impossible to tell for sure before surgeon has a chance to take it out and put it under microscope. Since middle of June she has been on strict fruit diet. Since middle of August she has been on grape and watermelon diet and taking some herbs that supposed to improve body?s ability to clean itself. Today the lump is the same size (over 1 inch) but it is not pointy anymore and seems to be bit porous. I have no idea if it is good or not but ?herb people? say it is great. I suspect that she feels some pain but is reluctant to talk about it as she is afraid to scare me. We waiting for a few more herbs to come in the mail that will stir up her lymph system and should help dissolve the lump.

She was told to put castor oil over the lump for 3 consecutive days with 3 day break and so on... go to sauna to get her sweating, and have 30-40 minutes swim every other day or so to improve circulation. She lost about 10 pounds so now she is 103 lb and 5 feet tall.

Despite this juice diet she seems to feel great and has tons of energy but has some cravings for onions and cabbage Smile

Surgeon said that she has very good chances if she would to go for surgery and some radiation but this is not what she believes in.

Thats our story...

mikes · Senior User Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 143

Rick,

The grape and watermelon, from what I have read are good. Especially the grape or grape seed extract. My understanding is that they should be red grapes or red grape juice. They contain resveratrol, which helps enhance the P53 gene activity. The P53 gene is what the body uses as a defense in the body to cause apoptotic death of cancer cells. The P53 gene first tries to repair mutated cells. If this is unsucessful, it causes to bad cell to die. If the P53 gene itself becomes mutated (which is often the case in some types of cancer), it allows the cancer cells to grow. The resveratrol in the grapes enhances the P53 gene's activity. This is an example of an alternative or nutritional agent actually working and knowing why it works.

Melatonin, selenium, and PSK also enhance the P53 gene. In the field of conventional medicine, some of the the most successful drugs in the most recent trials work by actually injecting P53 genes into the tumor using a virus as a vehicle. MD Anderson has a lady in one trial that has survived over 5 years with stage IV NSCLC on one of these drugs.

Cauliflower, broccoli, and onion are normally considered good in a cancer diet. Maybe the diet she is on has been found to work better without anything else. I don't know.

The watermelon contains lycopene which is supposed to help fight cancer.

The thing that I think you may find most interesting and encouraging is that the research that I have done on these foods and minerals has mostly been done on the PubMed/NIH site or at least confirmed there. This is the same place that doctors get reports on conventional medical trials etc.

There are many things that are known to improve the state of a cancer patient. In many cases the mechanism by which they work is scientifically known. Often what is not known is how they will work together. The possibilities are that they will:

1) work in an additive fashion
2) work in a synergistic fashion where the effect is greater that the sum
3) Interfere with one another

For example, it is known that grapes and PSK are both good, but what if you take both? I don't know who knows. It would take an expensive trial of every combination to find out. The companies selling Tarceva pills for $100 a piece can afford to find out things in big trials. People selling grape seed exract pills for less than a dollar a piece cannot afford to find out.

That's why I don't know if the cauliflower will help or hinder her present diet.

The same is true of conventional treatments and agents working with one another or alternative agents.

After my own experience, I can understand your Wife's refusal to take chemo or radiation therapy. The side effects can be horrible, even deadly, and they can make you sick. They can also cause problems to appear in years. The surgical option is less clear to me. It is easy to understand why somebody would not want to be cut on and disfigured. It is also possible that the surgery will be unsucessful or have complications. But at least in conventional medicine, surgical treatment of cancer has the best cure rate. It is usually reserved for stage I or II disease. If your wife's cancer progresses, the surgical option will be lost.

Please forgive me for rambling on, but after what happened to my wife using conventional medicine, I would like to do anything I can to spare others of this ordeal if I can. On the other hand, if someone has been helped by conventional medicine, I am happy for them. In our case, the conventional treatments were foisted on my wife when there was no hope of cure without telling us. If there is a chance of cure, then at least there is a risk/benefit ratio to weigh.

Best wishes,

Mike

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